Turn off your lights, shrink your bill. That’s the pitch utilities and efficiency advocates have sold for decades.

Mitch Rolling, co-founder and director of research of Always On Energy Research, told KXEL’s Jeff Stein on News Talk that the math behind that is broken. On a grid increasingly built around wind, solar, and battery resources with enormous capital costs and almost no fuel costs, utilities recover the same revenue requirement whether you run the AC or not.

Mitch discusses his article, “Why Energy Efficiency Won’t Save You Money in a Green Energy World,” in the full conversation below.